Witney march takes cuts fight to Cameron's doorstep (From Witney Gazette)
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Witney march takes cuts fight to Cameron's doorstep
5:03pm Sunday 9th January 2011 in Witney By Amanda Williams
HUNDREDS of protesters marched through Witney today to take their fears over cuts and privatisation to David Cameron’s doorstep.
A grim reaper and a coffin bearing the message “here lies the remains of Royal Mail” led the way through the town at the heart of the Prime Minister's constituency.
Trade union activists and workers from across the country joined the march, led by an Indian drumming band and also featuring protesters in Postman Pat costumes.
Last year the Government unveiled the Postal Services Bill, which includes proposals to sell off up to 90 per cent of the Royal Mail. It has its third reading in Parliament on Wednesday.
Communication Workers’ Union Eastern regional secretary Paul Moffat, who helped to carry the coffin, said: “Simply it would mean the death of Royal Mail.
“We are here today to take the message to David Cameron’s constituency door that we are not going to stand idly by while he creates an elite society.”
The biggest cheer of the day was saved for 12-year-old Nicky Wishart, who took to the stage with sister Beth, 14, to give their own anti-cuts message.
The Bartholomew School, Eynsham pupil was pulled out of classes and questioned by police ahead of a public protest about Eynsham Young People's Centre, set to lose Oxfordshire County Council cash.
He told the crowd: “We see the youth leaders as our friends.
“It’s a place for us to go and be ourselves, away from teachers and parents, where we can talk about whatever we want. “
Comments(58)
Lord Palmerstone
says...
6:15pm Sun 9 Jan 11
Darkforbid
says...
6:17pm Sun 9 Jan 11
Scrofulous Serf
says...
6:32pm Sun 9 Jan 11
Durruti
says...
6:57pm Sun 9 Jan 11
The highlight was the two kids who spoke at the end, better than the usual union bureaucrat speeches.
Low-point was Anne Black telling everyone to vote Labour and all our problems will be solved. Alistair Darling promised "deeper and tougher" cuts that under Thatcher is Labour won the last election.
The cuts won't be defeated through the ballot box, but through rank-and-file campaigns of direct action on the streets of our local communities, on the student campasuses and on the picket lines (both official and unofficial!).
Kropotkin
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7:51pm Sun 9 Jan 11
What does he think we have now?
Darkforbid
says...
8:10pm Sun 9 Jan 11
of the Apocalypse
Cut's
Are we carrot on stick donkey's
the wizard
says...
12:38am Mon 10 Jan 11
Keith Mitchell is a real good looking boy
says...
3:07am Mon 10 Jan 11
This is the same Keith Mitchell who lectured students about democratic means.
Tory scumbags like Keith Mitchell up and down the country have been given the opportunity to act out their political wet dreams.
Lord Palmerstone
says...
8:27am Mon 10 Jan 11
I don't suppose anything dramatic was expected at Tucson either, but the following quotation may persuade you, Mr. Serf, that the bad guys are never too far away
"Tory scumbags like Keith Mitchell up and down the country have been given the opportunity to act out their political wet dreams."
In passing,selling off the Post Office to an arm of the Franco-German hegemony which does most of the legislating for our decidedly decadent country is an extremely bad idea.
Paul Wesson
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8:45am Mon 10 Jan 11
Durruti
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12:16pm Mon 10 Jan 11
Scrofulous Serf
says...
12:55pm Mon 10 Jan 11
Volterra
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3:40pm Mon 10 Jan 11
Volterra
says...
3:51pm Mon 10 Jan 11
Govt expenditure in 2008/09:
£630bn. Very generous Gordon, but could we afford this? No.
Govt expenditure in 2010/11:
£697bn.
Govt expenditure in 2014/15:
£757bn.
Volterra
says...
4:00pm Mon 10 Jan 11
Lord Palmerstone
says...
5:29pm Mon 10 Jan 11
" as the halitosis ridden lefties from when I was a little un used to call it. And mostly I'm thinking the well-meaning postmen won't make a durn bit of difference. And, oh yes, if the man with the Mitchell fetish puts his unpleasant rhetoric into action on the street there'll be a lot of split heads
Scrofulous Serf
says...
5:56pm Mon 10 Jan 11
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Now all you need to do in answering this is to avoid the ad hominems, the extraneous points, the anachronisms, the irrelevant examples and you will have made your views clear to us all. You can simply answer yes or no, if that's easier.
Lord Palmerstone
says...
9:06pm Mon 10 Jan 11
If the "right" exists, so does the duty. What, Mr Surf, is the duty?
If your "political opinions" are abhorrent, what is your duty?
You cited the universal franchise as a "right" gained by demonstrations. Whether that is a true or a false conclusion, does not the universal franchise give you the opportunity freely and without violence to express your political opinions?
In your answer, please try to avoid abuse or, what seems irresistible to you, the temptation to patronise everyone else.
HughdeGree
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3:17am Tue 11 Jan 11
We shan't be eating her meals again. Thanks to her for letting me know how undemocratic she is. She clearly was trying to provoke the marchers on the day.
Porphyro
says...
8:50am Tue 11 Jan 11
Scrofulous Serf
says...
10:40am Tue 11 Jan 11
you disappoint again.
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I am going to take an inference from your second question (which is the part of your response which seems to me to be the least remote from the point at issue) that you believe that the franchise is a full and sufficient expression of the right of the individual to make his or her views known to the polity. Is that correct?
Keith Mitchell is a real good looking boy
says...
10:58am Tue 11 Jan 11
Lord Palmerstone wrote:You are hilarious. I have to admire the way you have turned a comment about Tories getting to have their way up and down the country as a 'wet dream' come true into rhetoric that would translate into splitting heads on the street.
"If not, what are you trying to say?" I'm thinking of the hate-filled faces of the creatures attacking the Prince of Wales' car, I'm thinking BNP marches in Burnley, I'm thinking Kristallnacht, yes it isn't just people like Mr Surf who do "extra-parliamentary " as the halitosis ridden lefties from when I was a little un used to call it. And mostly I'm thinking the well-meaning postmen won't make a durn bit of difference. And, oh yes, if the man with the Mitchell fetish puts his unpleasant rhetoric into action on the street there'll be a lot of split heads
Your hatred of anything to the left of Ghengis Khan coupled with your vivid imagination is an entertaining spectator sport indeed.
There is something in your past that has really hurt you isn't there?
Keith Mitchell is a real good looking boy
says...
11:06am Tue 11 Jan 11
Volterra wrote:The issue is that there will no longer be a universal postal service.
What exactly is the issue with Deutsche Post bidding for Royal Mail? Foreign ownership is a misnomer. You and I are perfectly entitled to purchase DPW stock as anyone else. With the exception of Railtrack, privatisation has been a success across the board. This scaremongering is unwarranted. Regarding this extremely shortsighted cuts issue, I'd like to remind everyone that *nominal* government expenditure will be increasing every year to 2015. Please get a sense of perspective. I'd also like to remind you that we are currently overspending in the region of £500million PER DAY.
Public ownership guarantees all profit goes to the British Government.
Privatisation has not been a success across the board. The rail system now costs the tax payer more than when it was in public ownership. The public now have to pay more for no greater gain on the railways, buses, British Gas, water etc.
Which ex publicly owned companies do you have shares in?
the wizard
says...
12:47pm Tue 11 Jan 11
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Why did Labour not invest in and expand the post office when it had the chance to do so?
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Labour did invest heavily in new, then state of the art, postal sorting facilities with the latest technology throughout the Uk. New postal hubs were created and many sorting facilities were moved away from town/city centres and those now redundant properties sold to help cover the costs involved. Indeed when this project was carried through we had the best equipement in the world. The Oxford sorting centre was moved out to Cowley. The only problem there was an ongoing staffing issue, that could only be resolved by the closing of the facility, and that was well reported by this paper. Elsewhere the new sorting facilities have been a success, however it is felt by the work force that they could have even been more successfull under a better run management structure.
I am told that here in Witney during the run up to Christmas, there was a shortage in staff due to the flu which is sweeping through the country as a whole, however the Roal Mail, deemed it un neccessary to employ temps this year to cover the shortfall in staff numbers due to seasonal illness.
Lord Palmerstone
says...
2:26pm Tue 11 Jan 11
Next question
"There is something in your past that has really hurt you isn't there?"
Yes, socialists killed my fellow countrymen in Korea and Malaya and they aimed missiles at my country for the first 4 decades of my life. Aren't you the lucky one being too young to remember?
Keith Mitchell is a real good looking boy
says...
2:45pm Tue 11 Jan 11
Lord Palmerstone wrote:And what were your fellow countrymen doing in Korea and Malaya at the time of their murder by Koreans and Malayans, sightseeing?
"that you believe that the franchise is a full and sufficient expression of the right of the individual to make his or her views known to the polity. Is that correct?" No, it doesn't work if the individual wants a violent dystopia. Next question "There is something in your past that has really hurt you isn't there?" Yes, socialists killed my fellow countrymen in Korea and Malaya and they aimed missiles at my country for the first 4 decades of my life. Aren't you the lucky one being too young to remember?
And why did they aim missiles at your country? Did your country aim any missiles at their country?
It's good to see it implied though that no Capitalists are responsible for any murders anywhere.
I like your simple politics, easy to get your head around.
Scrofulous Serf
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3:14pm Tue 11 Jan 11
Porphyro
says...
3:34pm Tue 11 Jan 11
Secondly, your comments on the conflicts in South-East Asia are a gross simplification of a complex set of historical, political, military and social forces.
Thirdly, the logic of your comments on socialists is - to put it mildly - distorted. Because over 50 years ago some people you inaccurately describe as "socialists" fought against British troops you seem to think it's fine to use the label socialist as a term of abuse. I know many people who would describe themselves as socialists yet have selflessly fought against the very excesses you seem to think are the essence of socialism. There's plenty of scope for lively debate on the merits of alternative political philosophies but not with someone who eschews grown-up argument.
Your posts are in danger of crossing the line that invites ridicule as the inevitable response.
Porphyro
says...
6:12pm Tue 11 Jan 11
Volterra
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6:44pm Tue 11 Jan 11
Volterra
says...
7:13pm Tue 11 Jan 11
sam_e
says...
7:24pm Tue 11 Jan 11
Paul Wesson
says...
7:26pm Tue 11 Jan 11
Volterra
says...
7:41pm Tue 11 Jan 11
Porphyro
says...
7:45pm Tue 11 Jan 11
Volterra
says...
8:07pm Tue 11 Jan 11
Porphyro
says...
8:35pm Tue 11 Jan 11
We all read texts in the light of our principles, our codes of morality and our attitudes towards other people so don't make the mistake, Volterra, of supposing that everyone who has the benefit of your own wide reading will automatically be persuaded to your own way of thinking. All I would ask you to accept is that your attack on socialism tells us more about you than it does about socialism.
sam_e
says...
2:51am Wed 12 Jan 11
We probably wouldn't have got to this stage using the socialist model - but now we are here - we are all being held back.
ps. Best comment thread on WG ever.
Volterra
says...
11:33am Wed 12 Jan 11
Scrofulous Serf
says...
12:36pm Wed 12 Jan 11
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I don't agree Volterra that you can equate Fascism with socialism. State socialism requires the state to guarantee both the supply of resources and to control production and exchange, whereas Fascism leaves the latter to private capital. However, the drive for the control of resources does lead to a more or less identical foreign policy.
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Welfarism is necessary to guarantee social stability in a modern liberal state. The trouble is that in Britain it is poorly managed and badly distributed. Nowhere near enough of the national resource is directed to education, the principal intervention through which cycles of disadvantage are broken and, arguably, the only hope we have for being able to compete in a global economy. In Finland, only the top 10% of graduates are considered for teaching careers and, as a result, the profession is well-regarded, well-remunerated and carries high levels of social status. As a result, Finland is fast overtaking us as a home to an intelligent, skilled and adpatable workforce. Until we can build this type of dynamic approach to education in the UK, welfarism will always be a sticking-plaster, rather than a locomotive for national advancement.
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Anyway, thanks Voterra for lifting both the tone and nature of the debate.
Peterr Mcvey
says...
7:36pm Wed 12 Jan 11
Volterra
says...
10:14am Thu 13 Jan 11
Volterra
says...
10:39am Thu 13 Jan 11
Volterra
says...
10:55am Thu 13 Jan 11
in the third world are pulled out of abject poverty through, you guessed it, capitalism and it is capitalism again which sees rising
energy prices act as a financial incentive to both ration use and develop alternative sources of energy.
Volterra
says...
11:22am Thu 13 Jan 11
http://www.capitalis
m.org/faq/labor.htm
Porphyro
says...
11:53am Thu 13 Jan 11
1) what you mean by "the teaching profession which suffers a pernicious left wing bias in the UK
2) what is the basis for your assertion that there are "socialist" policies which encourage high birth rates among the poor"
3) how you arrive at the conclusion that Britain allows "unchecked immigration"
4) whether you agree with me that your language and methodology leave some room for improvement.
I think we've by now all got the message that you're not a big fan of socialism but it might be better to talk about policies themselves rather than short-circuit the debate by describing any specific policy as "capitalist" or "socialist" or any other "ist".
Volterra
says...
12:34pm Thu 13 Jan 11
2/ Despite the high cost of raising children in this country, the birth rate is highest amongst the poor. State support makes this possible.
3/ Take a look at the relevant charts going back to the 1990s. 1997 is a threshold. Speak to any UK tradesman who has found life much tougher in the past 10 years.
4/ I have already said my views are based on real world outcomes as much as theory. My comments are written between a multitude of other, rather more important tasks. I give them as much thought and attention as they warrant relative to these other tasks (which concern 5, 6 figure sums).
5/ Minimum wages, I have no issue with in the public sector but private sector is a far more complex picture for various reasons I'm not inclined to go into right now. Low wage paying industries such as cleaning, retail, care etc, usually operate on very tight profit margins, relative to other industries. There are not vast pools of wealth sitting around, waiting to be tapped into.
Scrofulous Serf
says...
2:31pm Thu 13 Jan 11
1. In other words, no evidence.
2. Not true, more than 50% of live births are to those from managerial, professional and intermediate occupations.
3. Not true. We have had immigration controls under the various Immigration Acts - so how can it be "unchecked".
4. So do a lot of us, but it doesn't mean you have to be lazy in your thinking.
5. If you have a legal minimum wage then contract prices will increase accordingly since this will increase the prevailing market cost of labour.
Porphyro
says...
4:33pm Thu 13 Jan 11
Teachers aged under 35 are less likely to vote Labour and more likely to vote Conservative than their older colleagues. Some 22% plan to put a cross by Labour, while 21% would put one by the Tories.
"Just over a quarter – 26% – of those over 35 intend to vote Labour compared to 16% who plan to vote for the Conservatives.
A quarter of the teachers in the poll expect to vote Labour, but 18% intend to vote for the Tories."
So, to sum up, the outrageous truth is that 75% of teachers declared themselves not to be Labour voters. If you can get it so badly wrong on this point, I must repeat my fourth question from the earlier post: "...do you agree with me that your language and methodology leave some room for improvement?"
Volterra
says...
10:04am Fri 14 Jan 11
2/ Yes and what proportion of the total population are managerial, prof & intermediate? Fertility rate (i.e. births per mother) is highest amongst the poor. This is an indisputable empirical fact.
3/ Unchecked relative to the Major years. And how effective are said controls against illegal immigration?
4/ Anyone else have a 4 monitor set-up?
5/ It may have escaped your notice but we don't live in a closed economy. There is nothing to stop firms relocating to lower wage countries if domestic workers are priced out of the GLOBAL market. As I said, this is not an issue in the public sector. If Tesco were made to pay employees an excessive (relative to prevailing market price) minimum wage, expect to see higher grocery bills and/or more of those automated checkout machines. Law of unintended consequences.
Porphyro
says...
11:28am Fri 14 Jan 11
1) I will believe what I want to believe irrespective of empirical data.
2) I will assert that something is an undisputed empirical fact but I can't be bothered to cite sources.
3) If it's not true now I'll adjust my claim and assert it was true 10-15 years ago, ignoring the factb that it wasn't true then either.
4) I'll bung in a non-sequitur if I think it'll get me off the hook.
5) I'll use a bit condescension as a starter and then use the same failed argument that the Tories used against the minimum wage.
Nothing beats a dash of honesty, Volterra!
Volterra
says...
12:25pm Fri 14 Jan 11
2/ statistics.gov.uk
3/ Measured immigration ~300,000 in 1997; ~600,000 in 2007. A 100% increase may be described as 'unchecked' in my book.
4/ How is it a non sequitur? Managing my book can be considered a little more distracting than having to keep an eye on the oven or doing the gardening.
5/ Failed? Are you an economist? Are you in a position to declare any argument or policy a failure or success? The introduction of the minimum wage coincided with the false buoyancy of the Brown Bubble and significant public sector expansion. Let's see its effects over a full business cycle before passing conclusive judgment. Any thoughts on the decline of the various UK industries over the past century, by the way? Any role for global wage differentials do you think?
6/ Honesty and courage is being open to alternative ideas to your own. Given your rather partisan reaction to my comments, it would appear this is something you lack. Hayek would be a good starting point.
Volterra
says...
12:49pm Fri 14 Jan 11
Porphyro
says...
4:40pm Fri 14 Jan 11
Your final point:
"Honesty and courage is being open to alternative ideas to your own. Given your rather partisan reaction to my comments, it would appear this is something you lack. Hayek would be a good starting point."
My "partisan" approach merely consists in having different values from yours and not sharing your presuppositions and, along with Scrofulous Serf , correcting the erroneous assertions that you make, while you simultaneously accuse others of the very sins that you yourself commit.
I think this discussion has run its futile course so this will be my final contribution to this thread.
Lord Palmerstone
says...
9:23pm Fri 14 Jan 11
Kropotkin wrote:Well, not elite, that's for sure. We leave that to folks in China and South East Asia.What you may find concerning, although it has nothing to do with the postmen's (God bless 'em) march, is that China has slimmed down and honed its armed forces so that one day quite soon we may see some of their elitism in these parts. Mr. Surf and Porphyria may feel like a good march then, but events in the main square in Peking in the recent past suggest that they may be deprived of their opportunity.
The Union representative said: "We are here today to take the message to David Cameron’s constituency door that we are not going to stand idly by while he creates an elite society." What does he think we have now?
Scrofulous Serf
says...
5:09pm Sat 15 Jan 11
2. Not strue - http://www.statistic
s.gov.uk/pdfdir/birt
hs1209.pdf
3. Migration tends to follow economic growth trends. Unsurprisingly, there was negative immigration loss due to high levels of unemployment back then.
4. Pointless, extraneous comment.
5. We do not operate in a pure global market, otherwise the local market rate for labour would be those prevalent in China. Market rates for labour prevalent in China would not be enough for people here to provide for their basic human needs. Ironically, your argument is one rhat was propounded by Lenin.
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Lord Palmerstone (sic), you are out of your depth on this thread. Go and be rude to a local youth group or something - more your bailiwick.
Lord Palmerstone
says...
6:10pm Sun 16 Jan 11
Oh, Mr Surf, I only wish I had not wasted my life in a profession. I could have been a primary school teacher, like you, and touch the hem of God's robe. Thank you so much for sharing your erudition with me , you arrogant nonentity.
Niko Bellic says...
6:06pm Sun 9 Jan 11